Jesus is

russiandoll

So, as some of you know, I'm in the midst of questioning pretty much everything and doing a bit of losing, searching, maybe at some point finding and so forth. In my current line of church, the mentality is very much that Jesus is the narrow gate to salvation. I personally have always been uncomfortable when people asked me about Christianity and I knew that the church teaching I was supposed to give is that Jesus = the only way and he supposedly had very, very specific guidelines for us follow. So, I'm figuring out who or what I see Jesus as afresh and was wondering what your opinions are? I don't have any clearcut answers and would be interested in hearing people's thoughts / musings.

I hope this question is ok to ask? If it's not, I'm sorry and I can delete thread. I did look for an old thread but couldn't see one - if I missed it, feel free to point me towards that instead. xx

MJG791

This question is more than OK to ask here. In fact, its a question which hasn't been asked on the Ooze in quite some time...

I often have a difficult time with answering Jesus being the way to heaven. Mostly because the Bible presents a conflicting image(s) for me. The first image is that it is extremely difficult to enter heaven. The second is that God is love, and that Jesus is the embodiment of love in human form.

I think we enter heaven on the specific guideline of how well we embody love. What I think most people in the world think of though, is their capacity to love, rather than how much they love.

ringnut

It's a good question, and one i had do think about before posting.

To me, the man Jesus (Yeshua) is (was) a first century Jewish rabbi who taught a radical lifestyle that comes from a radical understanding of God.

Christ, on the other hand is an ideal. A human who lives in complete harmony with God and God's world. To Jesus' first followers, he was the embodiment of this ideal, but in his teachings, Jesus hints that this relationship with God is available to anyone who asks.

I know some here would disagree, and that's OK, i sometimes disagree with them. I don't think God judges us on what we believe. Jesus the rabbi made it clear God judges us on how we live!

And that, russiandoll, is the sum of the ringnut theological treatise. Hope it wasn't too wordy. :)

russiandoll

Thank you for your thoughts. I think you both have said somewhat similar things to how I'm thinking... And it wasn't too wordy at all, ringnut! And anyway, I like reading people's musings :) But I will go think a bit more as I don't have anything of use to say at present!

Seph

My view?

Jesus? See The Nature of Grace
Salvation? See Above and Beyond Christianity

Here's an excerpt re. Jesus:

1) The first is the Incarnation; whether Jesus was literally God.
Where at one point in time a few years ago I believed this was a critical question all needed to explore, I am now of the belief that it is a question that not only should be left unanswered, but shouldn't be asked at all. Mu.

Must he be literally God incarnate? I've stopped asking this question. I think the answer to that question hinges solely on choice, is inconclusive, but damningly divisive and destructive. I have come to leave it unanswered.

When we force the question of, "Was Jesus literally God" to be answered, we begin a journey down a path that cannot end in any other way but intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and a counterfeit religion. It ceases to be authentic – and some might argue – even valid

How do I, personally, come to terms with it? I am perfectly content (if I may use that word) in accepting Yeshua as a mortal man (even perfect man) – and wisdom teacher – who, through his life, presented a perfect or near perfect representation of the nature of God. God incarnate in metaphor. I don't (and believe, can't) look any farther. (This isn't denying Christ but rather avoiding Christolatry [Matthew 19:17, to some degree could suggest this position. ”Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God...”]). [And on a side note, to the Evangelical who would tell me this is the difference between Hell and Salvation, I say Jesus' core message was never “worship me or burn”].

I suppose by many definitions I am by no means even Christian.

2) The second problem embraces exactly where I stand right now.
Although to many my path could have led to atheism, in my case it most certainly did not. It does not diminish my belief in God at all. But when faced with the issue of following the will of God, the question must be asked, how am I to know the will of God? And again, in a certain and odd way, we return to the topic of “worship”.

I believe, as I've mentioned earlier, that it is completely possible and likely that we “worship” both consciously and unconsciously.

I don't and never have believed we should pray or worship Yeshua, but rather God as presented through Yeshua. I also believe it is completely possible and probable that people can unconsciously worship this same God.

Just as an atheist can unconsciously worship material goods so too can this atheist worship the God of Yeshua through action and practice... or Jew, or Buddhist, or Muslim, or Confucian, etc.

Yeshua said he was the way (to the Kingdom I presume). He never said he was in the way and he never said he was the destination.

Galadriel

Seph said:

Just as an atheist can unconsciously worship material goods so too can this atheist worship the God of Yeshua through action and practice... or Jew, or Buddhist, or Muslim, or Confucian, etc.

I wouldn't call it worship...can you really worship something you don't think exists? But the idea of atheists who are actually closer to God than some Christians reminds me of one of my favourite Naked Pastor comics.

russiandoll

ringnut said:

To me, the man Jesus (Yeshua) is (was) a first century Jewish rabbi who taught a radical lifestyle that comes from a radical understanding of God.

Christ, on the other hand is an ideal. A human who lives in complete harmony with God and God's world. To Jesus' first followers, he was the embodiment of this ideal, but in his teachings, Jesus hints that this relationship with God is available to anyone who asks.

Ringnut, so do you believe that Christ is separate from Jesus? And did Jesus aspire to the measure of Christ? If so, would we aspire to be like Jesus or Christ or both? Or neither?! I find your comment really thought-provoking and I'd love to hear your thoughts more :) And I hope my questions don't seem too rudimentary but I really am thinking through everything from the start, so pretty much everything is fresh to me - I have lots of thought-processes to uncondition!

And I will have to think about what the rest of you have said in more detail!

russiandoll

Seph said:
Must he be literally God incarnate? I've stopped asking this question. I think the answer to that question hinges solely on choice, is inconclusive, but damningly divisive and destructive. I have come to leave it unanswered.

When we force the question of, "Was Jesus literally God" to be answered, we begin a journey down a path that cannot end in any other way but intolerance, discrimination, suffering, and a counterfeit religion. It ceases to be authentic – and some might argue – even valid

blockquote>

I find this a really interesting viewpoint and it seems like there's a lot of truth in it, although the fact it is such a divisive and destructive question does make me feel sad. I guess it's the absolutism entrenched in it and the danger of such religious fervour that is so sad.

You also said that by many definitions, you wouldn't be classed as a Christian - is this because you don't see the question of if Jesus is God-in-flesh as one which should be answered? Christianity is a term which increasingly confuses me.

ringnut

russiandoll said:

ringnut said:

To me, the man Jesus (Yeshua) is (was) a first century Jewish rabbi who taught a radical lifestyle that comes from a radical understanding of God.

Christ, on the other hand is an ideal. A human who lives in complete harmony with God and God's world. To Jesus' first followers, he was the embodiment of this ideal, but in his teachings, Jesus hints that this relationship with God is available to anyone who asks.

Ringnut, so do you believe that Christ is separate from Jesus? And did Jesus aspire to the measure of Christ? If so, would we aspire to be like Jesus or Christ or both? Or neither?! I find your comment really thought-provoking and I'd love to hear your thoughts more :) And I hope my questions don't seem too rudimentary but I really am thinking through everything from the start, so pretty much everything is fresh to me - I have lots of thought-processes to uncondition!

And I will have to think about what the rest of you have said in more detail!

LOL! You would make me think a little harder, wouldn't you? No, i don't find your questions rudimentary at all. And i am thankful that someone is making me clarify what's going on in my own head.

"Christianity is a term which increasingly confuses me. "

Thank-you for that quote. It is so true for me, too!

Is Christ separate from Jesus? Umm, i'd have to say Christ isn't separate from anyone. Christ lives in each and all of us; it took Jesus to understand this and share it with those around him. Predictably, he was misunderstood by most, persecuted by some, and died at the hands of those who had the power to make it happen.

Sorry, i'm stuck. Have to think about it some more! Thanks for digging! :)

ringnut

Hi RD; it's been awhile, just wondering how things are going for you these days. Been thinking about you.

russiandoll said:
If so, would we aspire to be like Jesus or Christ or both? Or neither?! I find your comment really thought-provoking and I'd love to hear your thoughts more :)

OK, thought about it some more :) I think if we aspire to be like Jesus, then we are aspiring to be like Christ. At least those who knew him thought so. Jesus himself repeatedly urged those he met to 'follow me'. For me that is challenge enough.

I'm reading Tolstoy's 'The Kingdom of God is Within You' - heavy reading, but enlightening. In it, he compares the Christian life to rowing a boat across a swift-flowing river. If you aim your boat at the place you want to land, no matter how hard you row you will end up far downstream of your goal, or even be swept over the falls. To reach your goal, you must aim upstream from where you actually want to be. Does that make sense?

Howdy, Stranger!

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