From the Book of Ecclesiastes: "Do not be over-religious and destroy yourself nor be over-wicked and die before your time." ..... It is wise to take hold of one thing without letting go other. He who fears God will avoid all extremes." From the 7th chapter. ...... This reminds me of the over-righteous Pharisees and the over-wicked tax-collectors in the time of Jesus.

Marvin said:

"... It is wise to take hold of one thing without letting go other. He who fears God will avoid all extremes." .

Sounds alot like the Buddha

I think that Alan Miller assumes that 'choosing a side', not being a fence-sitter, and being rightfully 'religious' are all the same as being a fundamentalist (of one flavour or another)... and I would agree. This is the disease and plague of religiosity. (On a side note, I also think that it wasexactly this that Yeshua hoped to free us from).

I think the mistake Mr. Miller makes is the belief that Agnosticism itself is little more than a temporary or transitory state; that all agnostics will ultimately make a decision and move towards either Theism or Atheism (and he's wrong on there only being two choices as well.)

He misses or doesn't understand that therer are some (many?) forms of agnosticism which are a position (and a healthy one) within itself and containing its own wellspring of wisdom; that agnosticism isn't necessarily a state of indecisiveness.

I look at what Crystal Lewis chose to quote from Alan Miller:

“A bit of Yoga here, a Zen idea there, a quote from Taoism and a Kabbalah class, a bit of Sufism and maybe some Feing Shui but not generally a reading and appreciation of The Bhagavad Gita, the Karma Sutra or the Qur’an, let alone The Old or New Testament… The trouble is that ‘spiritual but not religious’ offers no positive exposition or understanding or explanation of a body of belief or set of principles of any kind… What is it, this ‘spiritual’ identity as such? What is practiced? What is believed?”

It makes me feel like I've been put in my place (at least from a Millerian point of view). I have been judged, labeled, categorized, and filed away. Seriously, check out my mod bio or my blogsite intro.

There are only 4 positions people can hold when it comes to issues of religion or spirituality. Exclusivism, Inclusivism, Pluralism, or Sycretism. (Okay, maybe 5. Total indifference isn't an impossibility I guess).

This Millerian view actually is an insult to agnostics because Agnosticism becomes a catch-all, or a misc. category. Pluralists and Sycretists as well as non-theists (which is not an atheist) all fall under “Agnostic” - fence-sitter. Isn't that convenient?

This is typical and common fundamentalist methodology. Demonize and devalue the opposition. It is just sad really.

I would most definitely count myself as 'spiritual-but-not-religion' simply because I see religiosity (of any and all flavours) as a disease. (And Galadriel's right. Most atheists I've met are unidentified Exclusivists).

Is any of this of any importance or significance? I would say yes. If the world would move towards a Millerian ideal, it will be plunged into darkness, chaos, and war.

The “Hodgepodge-Paradigm” may allow some chaos and confusion, but its a pretty wide playground.

This Millerian-Paradigm will bring war and conflict. Its ultimate end is either perpetual conflict or a single entity's empire. Last man standing.

And in a world that's becoming smaller with each passing day, I hope fundamentalism, exlcusivism, and the Millerian-Paradigm does not rise to the front.

Galadriel said:

It was weird at first to come back to The Ooze. I didn't know if it was appropriate for me to hop into the conversation when I no longer identified as a Christian and I would have completely understood if y'all had no longer wanted to talk to me about religious stuff. 

I can relate. When I was invited to be a mod. On this new Ooze I was somewhat shocked and surprised. I don't self-identify as Christian and many of my posts poke holes in (or at) it. (I sometimes wonder it it's just because the Ooze is so quiet lately that nobody notices I don't really belong....:(

I've stated before and forgive me for repeating, but i like the new, quieter, more inclusive Ooze. In the old days, there was a powerful, 'small o' orthodox element that hastened repeatedly to correct anyone who strayed from the straight and narrow. Sometimes in petty and spiteful ways.
Galadriel and Seph, i think your presence here is what makes it 'safe' for the rest of us to ask the questions that need to be asked. With you two as mods, it is an invitation to the rest of us 'fence-sitters' to be good with where and who we are. So, yes, you do 'belong'. More than ever.

Thanks. I really appreciate that.

ringnut said:

I've stated before and forgive me for repeating, but i like the new, quieter, more inclusive Ooze. In the old days, there was a powerful, 'small o' orthodox element that hastened repeatedly to correct anyone who strayed from the straight and narrow. Sometimes in petty and spiteful ways.
Galadriel and Seph, i think your presence here is what makes it 'safe' for the rest of us to ask the questions that need to be asked. With you two as mods, it is an invitation to the rest of us 'fence-sitters' to be good with where and who we are. So, yes, you do 'belong'. More than ever.

:)

thanx