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What if hell IS self-justification?
  • maguytonmaguyton June 2011
    Posts: 11
    I was going to put this inside the forum on Rob Bell's book but it seemed to merit its own new thread. What's been amazing to me after having read Love Wins is how many people want to believe that it questions the existence of hell as opposed to articulating a different understanding for what hell really is. The figure who most represents "eternal conscious torment" in Bell's book is the older brother of the prodigal son, a man who hates his father's grace because he wants for his works-righteousness to earn him something that his little brother can't have. What if that's precisely the attitude that we need to be liberated from by the cross?

    Why does Christ's atonement have to be our salvation from God's externally-imposed punishment rather than being our liberation from the ontological consequences of our own self-righteousness? What if the point of the cross is not to change God's mind about us but to change our minds about God? This is not hard for a Methodist pastor like me to roll with because we say it every time we declare absolution after a prayer of confession in our liturgy ("Christ died while we were still sinners. That proves God's love for us. In the name of Jesus Christ, you are forgiven"). What if we are the ones who need to have something proved to us by the cross, not God? What if the satisfaction of the cross is for our sake, not for God's sake?

    As a Wesleyan who believes in prevenient grace, I tend to think that God loves us whether or not we choose to accept that love. If we accept God's love, then eternity in His fiery arms is infinite comfort; if reject His love, then it is a lake of fire. We can follow the older brother of the prodigal son into the outer darkness, or we can accept our status as pampered prodigals and enjoy the party our Father throws for us.

    I think this way of understanding things helps to resolve the logical problem of "justification by faith." If justification by faith signifies God's evaluation of our "faithful" response to His love, there is no way that response can avoid being a work and we end up with a form of works-righteousness, whether it's ascetic works-righteousness (as it was for Pelagius), sacramental works-righteousness (as it was for the late medieval Catholics), or doctrinal works-righteousness (as it is for many conservative evangelicals today). The only way around this conundrum is to cheat (via Calvinism) and say that God isn't evaluating our responses to His love but evaluating His own predestined choices which is a scandalous and unnecessary smear on God's character. I wrote a blog about this question here: http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/justification-by-faith-3-perspectives.

    To me, justification by faith does not signify a decision God makes about the faithfulness of our response to Him but it describes the liberation that is inherent within pistis itself. When we trust Christ's justification, we step out of the prison of our self-justification that is the default human ontology produced by rational self-awareness, which might be called the byproduct of eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. As long as we're stuck in the prison of self-justification, we persist in eternal separation from God because we are trying to be our own gods whether we recognize this or not. The only way to enter into communion with God is to stop declaring our independence from Him and renounce our need to tell ourselves we're right about everything (which is the definitive characteristic of homo curvatus in se). Then the Holy Spirit can judge and sanctify us and draw us into loving intimacy with God and each other.

    Perhaps hell is needing to be right so badly that we fold our arms tightly and spend eternity pouting in the corner when God says you're wrong in so many ways but I love you anyway. What do you think of this account?
  • ringnutringnut June 2011
    Posts: 1,668
    Yeah! What you said. :)
    I actually was intrigued by your first sentence - that many people want the book to be about denying the existence of hell. What is with that, anyway?
    'Never underestimate what god can do with really shitty materials.' Robin V
  • maguytonmaguyton June 2011
    Posts: 11
    I think a lot of people have willfully misinterpreted it. But I get really frustrated when people who are saying things that are similar to what I'm saying describe their views as being "universalist" or "post-hell" or whatever. Huh? I'm definitely not a universalist and I definitely believe that there will be a lot of people in hell, even if I see it as a state of being rather than a physical, temporal place. It's just that there's a real ontological deficiency we have that Christ's atonement resolves rather than an independently imposed punishment from God that gets averted. God doesn't need to punish us. Our hatred of grace is punishment enough until we are won over.
  • ringnutringnut June 2011
    Posts: 1,668
    Do you believe hell is eternal? Wait, let me re-phrase that. Do you believe once one has consigned themselves to hell that there is a point of no return? That they remain in that state of being forever?
    'Never underestimate what god can do with really shitty materials.' Robin V
  • maguytonmaguyton June 2011
    Posts: 11
    I think that the more stubbornly you cling to your own autonomous rightness and hatred of God's grace, the thicker your neck will grow just like Pharaoh. I don't think God runs you over and sweeps you into His arms, or if He does that, I'm not sure it isn't something the recipient experiences as a lake of fire. So I'm definitely not a universalist, but I think hell is an active choice on our part as opposed to being God's declaration as something independent of our active choice.
  • wiseowl427wiseowl427 June 2011
    Posts: 130
    maguyton said:

    I definitely believe that there will be a lot of people in hell, even if I see it as a state of being rather than a physical, temporal place.



    Would you elaborate more on what you see as 'hell' - as state of being.

  • SephSeph June 2011
    Posts: 5,487
    maguyton said:

    Our hatred of grace is punishment enough until we are won over.



    What a great line!

    (After all, isn't that one of the points with the parable of the workers in the vineyard?)

    Hatred of grace. That's it, isn't it?
    Syncretism is akin to wringing the truth out of ten thousand lies

    The Woven
    The Symbiot; a novella

    "It seems in some circles, thinking is heretical"
    ringnut
  • maguytonmaguyton June 2011
    Posts: 11
    I tend to associate hell with a lot of things that begin with self, self-justification, self-absorption, self-worship, all of which preclude communion with God and other people. I don't think that God overrides our self-absorption but I don't necessarily think we're permanently stuck that way either. I hope that when we enter into full communion with God, there are people who get to go out in the outer darkness to try to bring people back, because that's how I would rather spend eternity than standing around singing the hallelujah chorus a few trillion times.
  • wiseowl427wiseowl427 July 2011
    Posts: 130
    Very interesting. I read a book awhile back called 'Seth Speaks' allegedly written by a 'soul' channeling through this woman named Jane Roberts. And, that is basically what he said. When people pass on they expect what they thought was going to happen when they were in a physical body and it was up to others that had already gone on to help them understand the afterlife wasn't like what they thought, i.e. souls were given a helping hand out of the 'belief state' they were stuck in.

    Although what you have put forth and the concept of the afterlife in 'Seth Speaks' are different there are some similarities.
  • GaladrielGaladriel July 2011
    Posts: 12,443
    That is very interesting! What did the soul say that the afterlife was actually like? Are there any people who don't have to be helped out of their belief states?
  • maguytonmaguyton July 2011
    Posts: 11
    The after the grave part is all purely speculation for me. The main thing is that our default ontological state as rational creatures is self-justification, the need/attempt to rationalize our actions. We do not have the power to make ourselves okay with our mistakes. Without any atonement, we might pretend to process our mistakes but in reality we're sweeping them under the rug and/or downplaying their importance in such a way that it warps our perspective, like if you smack a microscope around hard enough, the lens can longer focus. Atonement gives us the power to hate our sin, which is the only healthy relationship we can have to it. God hates our sin because it hurts us and makes us less than He created us to be. We can accept Christ's atonement and cheer when God takes our pile of sin and casts it into hell forever or we can clutch to our sinful self-identity so tightly that we fly with it into hell. (I figure in this forum it's safe to experiment with metaphors for talking about this stuff.)